Podcast: Why is Your Baby Waking Every 2 Hours?

It's been a long time dream to have my own podcast where I can freely educate about parenting issues dear to my heart without being limited by the 30 second watch time of Instagram reels. And I'm so glad that I have launched the Modern Indian Parent Podcast to do exactly that. 

We release episode every Friday on various parenting topics and offer a modern age take on them to bust myths and guide young parents to own their modern parenting choices.

You can find and subscribe to the podcast on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/@ModernIndianParent) and Spotify (https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/modern-indian-parent) 

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Episode 2 - Why Your Baby Is Waking Every 2 Hours

Introduction:

In this episode, we discuss the common issue of babies waking up every two hours and and discuss the common reasons why babies wake up frequently at night, including hunger, teething, sleep regression, and sleep associations. The conversation then delves into the concept of external sleep associations and how they can contribute to frequent night wakings. The conversation concludes with a mention of sleep training as a potential solution for improving sleep habits.

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Prefer to read? Here is the full transcript of the episode:

Rinie (00:11)

Hello and welcome our modern Indian parents. This is our second episode and today we are talking about a topic that will hit home. Your baby sleep and why is it that your baby wakes up every two hours?

Sanchita Daswani (00:26)

My God, like I think this is the main topic that we need to talk about. This is something all parents are going through. And I think like being in an Indian household, like as soon as this happens, you literally get like these few main responses. And I think the one which we were talking about earlier is like, it's okay. Like all babies have to wake up every two hours. This is part of life. whenever you're gonna deliver, like whenever you're gonna become a parent, what's the first thing they tell you? Like, your sleep is gonna be gone.

So I think that's like, literally, they're like, okay, no more sleep, enjoy your sleep before the baby comes. Like that is just always a given statement. And then I think the other thing is they'll be like, it's okay, your baby's hungry, like, just give milk right away. Like, that's kind of like that go to, you have to do it, or we'll just blame it on teething, sleep regression, growth spurt, like those main things. So I think that's why this is going to be a great episode because you're going to break it down for us.

Rinie (01:21)

No, you know what, you're bringing out so many like very valid things because that is what like, we are told by these are the various things to blame, but the problem is that nobody really understands what's going on. It's all just like wild guesses that teeth must be coming out or most likely they were hungry, they didn't eat enough in the day, but I'm like, what is that the case for the past eight months? And I think the I think one thing that you didn't mention, which I see a lot is like this dangling the carrot approach for parents to get them to accept the sleepless nights. So it's like their baby is four months old, they'll be like, hey, you know what, when they turn six months, it gets all better. They start sleeping a lot longer. And then when they turn six months, they're like, no, it's at one year. And then they turn one year old, they're like, no, it's at 18 months. And the carrot just keeps going further and further away. And they're just like...

Accept your fate. I got that that thing like once you're like while I was pregnant One of my aunts told me that that's it like just enjoy your sleep And I was not sleeping well during my pregnancy. So I'm like, are you telling me that I'm not gonna be sleeping ever?

Are all night wakings due to hunger?

Sanchita Daswani (02:22)

I know we all do. And you know what every single parent like if you ask like do you want another kid they're like I don't know because like sleep is like that main concern they're like I don't know if I can do that again like being up all all of us in that way. So I feel like there's so many reasons as you're saying so can we break it down part by part I really want to know first can we talk about hunger okay so if your child's waking up every two hours at night how many times is it related to hunger is it always related to hunger is that one of the biggest reasons

Rinie (02:57)

Fantastic question. Okay, so I can't I can't wait to give my two cents on this So the thing with hunger is that it's really ab out related to the age of your child So when you have a newborn baby, they are four six weeks old their tummies are tiny they're still getting a grasp of how to feed at the breast or the bottle So yes, they are taking small amounts of milk and there is a likelihood that they could be waking up every two to three hours that is, biological, you can't run away from that. You have to brave those nights. But once your child's got getting older, they hit that three months, four months and beyond, their stomach capacity increases. They're able to hold more milk. They are able to feed more efficiently. And they are capable of taking more calories in during the day. So it's not always hunger. And if you're telling me, especially if you're talking about like a nine month old.

I'm just going to take an example of a nine -month -old baby who's still waking up every two hours. Is it hunger? No. Most likely not, Unless you're dealing with something like you're dealing with like a feeding impediment or some some challenge where the child is unable to feed well but if the child is healthy, feeding well during the day, if they're still waking every two hours at night to eat, it's not hunger, And it's not that difficult to tell because you will be able to tell from the way they are feeding at night. If you are with a baby who is latching on the breast, let's say, and they latch for like three minutes, four minutes, and they're right back off to sleep. Or if a baby was bottle feeding and you give them a bottle of let's say four ounces and they take like one ounce and they're back to sleep. What does that tell you?

It wasn't hunger! So this is a very common misconception that I always hear from mums is like, my baby woke up to feed four times tonight. I'm like, no, your baby woke up four times. It's not always that they woke up to feed because it's not that always waking out of hunger. I'm sure you've seen this as a, in your field as well.

Sanchita Daswani (04:58)

And what, it's, and so I like how you're putting it. In the beginning, yes, they will wake up every few hours because their tummy's so tiny, they need to have more frequent feeds. But I think what you're saying is where a lot of parents get stuck is that they get into this groove and then even at four or five months, they're still doing this and they're still blaming it on hunger. , and for me, it's interesting because, at six months when we start solids and they come to me, they're like, my baby's still waking up three, four times at night. And I'm like, okay, and then we need to start solids so that they can actually sleep through the night. And I hate to break it to you guys, but starting solids is not going to let your child, sleep better because basically they're getting all their calories from milk in the first year of life, So the idea is that by the time your baby reaches five, six months,

they should be getting at least five to six milk feeds in the day and they've learned to take bigger quantities. So they're getting all their calories from milk so that they don't need to wake up so many times. So I think that's a big misconception. Starting solids is not going to be the answer. But I want to ask you quickly before we move on to the next thing is at five, six months, a lot of babies are still waking up three, four times,

My question is how many times is it okay for them to wake up and actually need a feed? Is it just once? Because whenever I tell my clients like, your baby can sleep through the night, they actually get nervous. They're like, no, no, no, my child is not going to be okay if they sleep for five hours without waking up for milk. It's not possible. So, can you clarify that for us? Is it okay? Can they sleep longer?

Rinie (06:40)

Of course, of course. Most definitely. I think what we are looking at is typically what I see with the families that I work with and is after the age of four months, typically most babies can go through the night with one feed up to two feeds. So that is still putting the feeds four to five hours apart. So you have four hours of sleep, one feed, another four to five hours of sleep, another feed and then next thing in the morning. Or it could just be like six hours of sleep, seven hours of sleep, one feed and then straight away in the morning. So this is a very common thing that can be achieved, But a lot of babies are not doing that. And we were going to dive into why is that? Okay. Why is it that the baby is needing to feed every two hours or sometimes every hour? a lot of the families I work with, baby is latching every hour and mom is like, what's happening? Is there something wrong with my breast milk? Is the baby not full? Is it what people are telling me true that breast milk doesn't have a lot of calories is getting a like digested and like, what seconds? No, it doesn't work that way. Right. So what's really happening?

The real reason babies wake frequently - Sleep Onset Association Disorder

So if you really want to understand why is that your baby is waking up every two hours or every hour to feed or to get rocked or to get back their pacifier in clinical terms, they call it sleep onset association disorder. And let me break it down for you. What they are saying is that when your child is dependent on something external to fall asleep, this is what ends up causing night wakings.

And just for the purpose of this episode, we're just going to call them external sleep associations. So external sleep associations are what are causing these very frequent, very exhausting night wakings. And I'll explain it to you in the context of my own daughter. I struggled a lot with her night wakings. I think by the time she was about three months old, we were down to maybe three wakings a night. But then once the four month regression hit,and she was between four and five months old, we were up six times a night minimum, And it's like every hour, hour and a half, she was up and either we were giving her a bottle or if we had just given the bottle like an hour ago, we were replacing the pacifier and we would just keep doing that through the night. And I was wondering why, why is that happening? And the reason for that is that...

The way she fell asleep was either we were bottle feeding her to sleep, so she would be sucking on the bottle and then she will fall asleep while bottle feeding, or we would give her a pacifier and then we would rock her to sleep. And then during the night, we had to replicate these things over and over again. Either we had to pick her up, give her the bottle, and then she would fall asleep and she would only take like an ounce or two at most.

Or we had to pick her up, put in the pacifier, rock her back to sleep and transfer her again. And we kept on doing that. Now, the reason why we have to do this is you see now as a sleep consultant, now I understand this. I didn't know this when I was a new mom is babies. Their sleep is arranged in sleep cycles and not just babies, even for adults. Our sleep is in sleep cycles. So for babies, that sleep cycle could be anything between 45 minutes to 60 minutes long.

for adults is about an hour, hour and a half long. So now what's happening is that your baby, goes into a sleep cycle, It starts with light sleep. They go into deeper sleep, deep sleep, and then they come out of that sleep cycle. And before they can go into the next sleep cycle, there is this slight waking that happens. And it happens for us too. in the middle of the night, you would like adjust your blanket a little bit or pull your pillow in a different position, And...

Sanchita Daswani (09:57)
, I wake up, . I wake up sunny, but like, see, we wake up, but we've learned how to go back to sleep. And I think the issue with babies is that they haven't learned. And then what we are doing is giving them these soothing things, that they are then relying on.

Rinie (10:19)
Bingo. That's exactly what's happening. So between sleep cycles, when they are waking up, maybe one or two sleep cycles, they can connect on their own. But then after two hours, they are just like, wait, when I fell asleep, you were bottle feeding me or you were nursing me or you were rocking me or you were giving my pacifier. Where is it now? I want it back to be able to go back to sleep. And then, they cry. And that is kind of what ends up getting us stuck in this cycle of one to two hourly wakings, It's basically the things that we're doing to help them fall asleep are what causing the night wakings in the first place.

Sanchita Daswani (11:01)
I see. I really appreciate this, but I'm also getting a little nervous because I'm like, I think all of us use pass, we've used pacifiers, we've used rocking, we've done all of this, but like, and like so many of us would nurse to sleep and all of that. So is it not like, like should we have not done, like what do we do? Like is nursing not a good idea? Cause I know a lot of people do this, like their baby will nurse to sleep in the day.

or at night. So is it a bad habit? Because a lot of people like to do it because it's the way of connecting. And they also feel like the baby's so small, they need that cuddle. They need those cuddles and that support. So what is your view on nursing to sleep?

Is nursing to sleep a "bad" habit?

Rinie (11:43)
Absolutely. So I think that's such a great point to bring out and the thing is with when it comes to sleep association, There's a lot of nuance to it, I hate when sleep associations are labeled as good or bad. that's why like I am very particular that like when I when I talk about a sleep association, I will call it. Yes, this is an external sleep association. And the thing with sleep associations are that they are only a problem if they are a problem for you. Is nursing to sleep a bad habit? Hell no.

Is rocking to sleep a bad habit? No. Is anything that you're probably, is it a bad habit? No. But when it starts crossing over to that line where it's starting to cause a lot of night wakings, it's starting to disturb your baby's sleep, it is starting to disturb your own sleep, that's when you need to actually start considering, maybe do I need to change this? So, don't change what's not broken.

If your baby is sleeping well, you are sleeping well, everybody is happy and you could be doing any of these things. You could be nursing to sleep or walking to sleep or doing any of these things and it's working well for you. Don't change it. It's working well. Everybody's rested. But.

Sanchita Daswani (12:54)
Okay, so, right. So you're saying that like, it's okay, like if your child's using a pacifier, it's okay. But I think you're saying the issue is, is when that reliance becomes too much and then you notice these night wakings.

Rinie (13:08)
Absolutely, There are a lot of babies who are nursed to sleep but are still sleeping through the night. But there are many babies who are waking up frequently, Latching to sleep throughout the night. So many moms that I work with, They are telling me that every hour, which means every sleep cycle transition, their baby is latching to sleep and they're getting sore from always sleeping in this like cuddle -curl position, They're sore at night. They're not getting a lot of sleep because they're constantly in light sleep.

You can imagine right when you're breastfeeding and your baby comes at the breast you are gonna like wake up during that time and it's possible that you may even have trouble going back to sleep many of the moms that I work with are not feeding in the side lying position they are having to take the baby up in their lap feed them lay them back so you can imagine how much disruption that causes in their night and some of them they were like they're okay with it but many of them are like we are feeling tired. We are feeling trapped. Because if baby is nursing to sleep for naps and nights, mom is constantly in bed with the baby during that time. And you can imagine how that would be for her, 14, 15 hours a day, she's in a dark room with the baby. And that's tough. and...

Sanchita Daswani (14:06)
It affects our health, our mental health, our physical health to be in that situation. And I think that's what most of my clients say. They're like, now we can't just do it. We're just so done. In the beginning, it was OK. But I think for them, they realized it's kind of carried on a bit too long. So one is hunger, which I think you explained. First few months, it's OK. But after a point, we need to focus on calories in the day.

The next thing you're saying is that sleep, external sleep associations don't, they're not the worst thing, but yes, we do not want kids to be so attached to it. Now, the third thing that a lot of people say, and I know I've also kind of done this and I've kind of told my clients, is it teething? Is it sleep regression? Because,

I feel like the whole day that's all we're doing. We're blaming it on another sleep regression. Like, my baby's finally sleeping again. They're waking up, So what about all these phases they go through? Do they actually affect sleep?

Rinie (15:23)
So I think like you pointed out, Like majority of the sleep problems that I see that are being caused are usually because of these external sleep associations that we just spoke about, Because these have been going on for a long time.

But what about babies who were actually sleeping well and then suddenly they start having all these night wakings and everything. The thing with those babies, it definitely could be a sleep regression or a teething phase, but it's very important to understand in what ways do they impact sleep and how long do they impact sleep for.

Does teething cause night wakings?

For example, let's talk about teething. I feel teething is this unnecessary scapegoat for everything. From the age of four months onwards, they are all just like, baby's not sleeping, must be teething. Baby's not sleeping, must be teething. And I'm just like, how long has it been going on for? They're like, it's been a month now. I said babies, babies don't teethe for a month. The thing is like yes the the tooth starts emerging through the gums but the painful part of it like where it actually starts disturbing sleep or solids is when the tooth is cutting through the gum and you will be able to actually almost see that process because you will start seeing places where the gum has swollen a little bit exactly in the place where the teeth is coming.

You will see these white nubs these white little dots that will start appearing which is basically you can see the tooth underneath the skin and when the teeth is cutting through that is when it's painful and that process could be as little as two or three days sometimes overnight maximum is about seven days and if you are telling me that the sleep disturbance has been going on for a month and there are still no teeth to show for it it wasn't teething.

It's time to look elsewhere and it's time to stop blaming teething because nature is not that unkind. because our babies are going to be sprouting teeth for the first like 10, 12 years of their life. First they are baby teeth and that all falls out and then they are like, their main adult teeth will start coming in. So it's not that unkind that, you can blame like months of sleepless night on just teething. And not to mention, pain, it's a pain. You can manage it. You can add, you can give teethers, you can give pain medication and it's manageable.

Sanchita Daswani (17:49)
So you're saying that it shouldn't last so long because even when it comes to food, a lot of times babies, they suddenly stop eating. my clients are like, it's teething. So then I tell them, okay, if it's teething, during that phase, let's work with them. So let's give them a cold mango pit or a really ripe strawberry, or like give them the fruit nibbler just for, I say you only use the fruit nibblers.

During teething and let them gnaw and let them soothe their gums because also when they're teething they're going through pain so their body's kind of focused on that that they don't have energy to kind of really eat and chew and they just kind of want to take it easy but I think when it gets extended is when it becomes a problem when it's like been three weeks and your child is still not eating or stuff like that so okay so teething cannot be the main reason. Give it a few days and if it's longer than that, we know that's not it. Now what about these, you see regressions because I feel it's like, how many times does it happen? .

Impact of sleep regressions on sleep

Rinie (18:47)
It's not it.

It's a new buzzword.

It's the new buzzword, Sleep regression must be a sleep regression. Like I'm a part of a couple of these mom groups and then it's, I see so many moms who are just like, hey, my baby is nine months old and won't sleep for more than an hour at night and then keeps waking up or there's another mom is like, my baby is 18 months old and that's still not sleeping through the night. And then the responses are coming in is just like, there is a sleep regression at eight months or there's a sleep regression at 18 months.

So firstly, I think what we need to understand about sleep regressions is that they are progressions in your child's development. And sleep regressions, the way they are like they pointed it out that like, okay, there is one at four months and there's six months and there's eight months and there's 12 months and there's 18 months and 24 months. If you keep tracking the month of the sleep regression,

It's gonna drive you crazy because like you're always gonna be Anticipating bad sleep or when the bad sleep does come during that time you're always blaming it on it instead of looking for the real reason Instead what you need to understand is whenever your child is going through a new skill development Let's say they're learning how to crawl some babies do it around seven to eight months some do it at a year some do it at six months, so there is no definite way of saying that the eight -month sleep regression, which is typically linked to crawling, is going to happen at eight months. It can happen at any time, So that's the first thing that we need to understand is that just because your baby's a certain age doesn't mean they are 100 % going to go through that regression. There's actually a study done on it which shows that there is no particular time or age at which all babies go through sleep regressions.

I feel four -month regression is the particularly possibly the only one where there is that whole thing where babies sleep cycles are getting rearranged and this too can happen anything between three and a half to five and a half months almost but all the other regressions which are actually linked to progressions in development whether it's cognitive whether it's physical can happen at any time so that's the first thing but the second thing is how people ask me okay how long does it last?

How long do I have to bear with poor sleep? Because my child is going through a sleep regression, And, often that is linked to, I tell them is often is linked to is how long is it gonna take them to master that particular skill, Whether it's rolling, whether it's crawling, whether it's walking, Normally you will see one to two weeks where they're, really trying to master that skill and that disturbs sleep because they want to start practicing it at new...

Sanchita Daswani (21:35)

So they wake up at night and they're crawling and rolling. Yes, okay. Okay, now I get what you mean by that connection. Okay, okay, okay.

Rinie (21:39)

Yes, or like there's a whole bunch of stuff that's going on in their minds. Let's say comes from language development, There's so much going on. Or when they start developing object permanence. So there are all these cognitive developments as well that may not be like visible to you in terms of like what your baby is doing, but what they are feeling, what they're thinking. That is also it's distracting them from sleep,

Sanchita Daswani (22:04)

That's so nice how you've put it, because I think till now, I've always thought of sleep regression as such a negative thing. But I think for us as parents, it's so nice to kind of understand that, no, it's actually related to developments that they're going through, their growth and learning these skills. And I think once as parents, we understand what is happening and why it's happening, I think also our mindset, we are a bit more gentle in that thing. Like if we think of sleep regression, we're like, my God, they're waking up every night. We're in panic mode.

But if we kind of understand and go with the flow, and that four month that that regression is the one that I know a lot about because literally everyone's messaging me at four months saying we need to start solids because our child keeps waking up every time. And I'm like, it's not it's not because they're starting solids. It's because it's around this month where they have realized they are their own person, where they are going through this phase, where they are more aware of the world.

So it's not only with waking up at night, you will see, or like they're like, my baby staring at food. I'm like, because now they're staring at everything, because they've suddenly realized this whole new world around them. parents, we tend to isolate it and be like, it has to be the food, and they want to eat. But I'm like, no, they're looking at food, but they're also looking outside and they're looking at you. So that's a dangerous one. 

Rinie (23:33)

But it is a very significant one as well. I'll tell you that. You know, like I think the rest of the skills that like I have seen that of course like crawling will cause some issues with sleep and walking will cause some issues with sleep. The four month mark is what you mentioned, the whole thing about becoming very aware of your surroundings and what's everything around you. On top of that, there is this whole bunch of crap that's happening in their head as well, because all of their sleep cycles are getting rearranged. we just spoke about sleep cycles earlier, how we have light sleep and deep sleep and REM sleep that is a very mature organizational sleep cycle that is not there when they're newborns. When they're newborns is very simple. There is light sleep and there is deep sleep. That's it. There's two two stages of sleep and then when they turn about four months old they end up getting four stages of sleep. So that's a very big cognitive change that is happening and that is what is causing them to be so like it's very hard for them to sleep but

Sanchita I think the thing with regressions is that they are not, again, something that should be causing months of sleepless nights. I'll tell you what actually does end up causing months of sleepless night where parents are like, like I mentioned, eight, nine month old, 10 month old, 18 month old, still waking up every two hours. Is it a regression to blame? No. What ends up happening is that let's say the regression did start or the teething did start that in that short term, it disturbed sleep.

And to be able to get that sleep back in order, what we started doing as parents, which any parent would do, is that we started soothing more. We started rocking more. We started feeding more. We started introducing the pacifier. . And then we bring baby into bed if they were sleeping in the crib in the first place. And when we made all these changes because of this short term regression or teething phase.

Sanchita Daswani (25:06)

Yes. Yes. And then they get used to that.

It gets extended and then it extends past that and that's when the okay. Okay,

Rinie (25:25)

Because then you have introduced all these more additional external sleep associations that weren't there earlier. And then even if that cognitive development has passed, that physical milestone has passed, the sleep disturbance continues to stay because associations stay, which is going back to what we spoke about earlier, the external sleep associations and how they cause night wakings.

Sanchita Daswani (25:42)
Those associations stay. Got it.

Rinie (25:53)

So this is the real tea on teething and regression. They are real. Never, I will never dismiss teething and regression, but they are not the cause of months of sleepless night. They should not be blamed for months and years of sleepless nights.

Sanchita Daswani (26:02)

I don't know what happens when we become parents. I think I'm sure we know this but I think we just get a bit carried away or we just are so sleepy and tired that sometimes we also can't think straight. So we're like, just give the pacifier, just give it. And we also don't even realize how it becomes a habit, because we are just so in our, we're so zoned out.

I think because my kids were already on a routine, it kind of flowed a bit. And then what happened is suddenly again, then they keep waking up. And I think what happened is we just got so used to holding and rocking them that, they were doing okay. But then suddenly, like, especially post one, like to get them to fall asleep, like we were holding them sometimes for one hour.

You know, and I kept saying it will pass, it will get better, it will, my God. And then suddenly in a year and a half, I was like, I cannot be rocking them for one hour every night before they and that was like, I need to get help. But I totally get how you mean it just, you don't know when you start something you don't realize, and it just suddenly becomes our life. And, it's really about catching that early on and just being aware. I think just this episode. For all the new parents, at least now you have it in your mind that, okay, these are not the main reasons and let's stop ourselves before it becomes worse.

Solution to two hourly night wakings

Rinie (27:30)

Honestly, like there is there's definitely ways of like making changes anytime. So let's say if you find yourself stuck in a pattern of these one or two hourly wakings that has been going on for a long, long time, one thing that I would encourage parents to consider and read about is sleep training, And sleep training is, basically a process of helping your baby how to sleep without needing all these external sleep associations without needing nursing, rocking, pacifiers, holding, co -sleeping.

So many of these sleep associations that are unsustainable for you, they're causing sleep to become difficult in your family. sleep training is a good way of moving away from that, which allows you and your child to get good sleep. And if you are hearing about sleep training for the first time, don't be worried. We are going to talk about sleep training in depth in the very next episode, Because as a pediatric sleep consultant, I have like worked with over 300 families, sleep training them. I have a sleep training program as well. I'm just gonna drop the link down below for you to check it out. I'm very passionate about sleep training. Something that I feel all parents should know is at least as an option, They need to understand that just accepting your fate with sleepless nights, it's not the only thing, the only thing out there.

Sanchita Daswani (28:34)

I really feel like, this episode was great because we spoke about, there are reasons why kids wake up, right? Like sometimes it'll be hunger, teething, sleep regression, all of that. But of course that's not the long -term thing. We cannot every day keep blaming it on that. So I think what everyone's dying to know is then, okay, now what's the solution?

What do we do then? And I know you mentioned sleep training. So I'm so excited to dive into that in the next episode. But I want to know because I think when we say sleep training, we all get so nervous. So many of us get scared because it's like we just think of our babies crying a lot. So that's why I'm looking forward to the next episode where I'm sure you're going to clarify that for us.

Rinie (29:23)

Absolutely, I'm very excited about next episode as well. I'm going to bust some myths about sleep training and talk about how is it that you can, get started on it, educate yourself about how to do it And , definitely tune in. And to all the listeners and anybody who's viewing it on YouTube, if you like this episode, please drop us a review and follow us on Instagram for new episode updates.

Sanchita Daswani (29:28)
Thank you for joining us.

Rinie (29:50)
Thank you, have a good one, bye.